Thursday, May 24, 2012

Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Idolatry "vs" Patrick J miron, praying "THRU- the saints

Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Idolatry


maryRoman Catholics have an extremely high view of Mary and have attributed some astounding characteristics and abilities to her, such as her interceding for us, atoning for us, and delivering our souls from damnation (documented below).  Protestants consider this elevation to be not only extreme, but idolatrous since they attribute to Mary what should only be said of God.  Roman Catholicism responds by saying it venerates Mary and gets its doctrines on her from Sacred Tradition, which is an "inanimate thing passed from hand to hand,"1.  Alright, so which is it, the sin of idolatry or the blessing of veneration?
The Roman Catholic church teaches there is a difference between idolatry and veneration.  It says,
"Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God....An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised [sic] in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them." 2
The Roman Catholic Church has defined idolatry far too narrowly in its favor.  Let's consider two things.

Divine Worship

First, notice that it says "divine worship" should be given only to God.  This works out to mean that other forms of worship to Mary are okay, as long as it isn't "divine worship."  But what is "divine worship?"  After searching through the Vatican Website3, the Catholic Encyclopedia4, the entire Council of Trent5, Vatican II6 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church,7, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,8 and the Catholic Dictionary9 the best I could find was, "Now the divine worship is directed to the glorification of God."10  That is a nice and brief comment, but it isn't descriptive enough.  Why is it that in all these sources Divine Worship is not defined?  Perhaps it is because offering a strict definition might make them vulnerable to criticism concerning their worship of Mary.
Catholicism says that divine worship is for God only, yet it also says it is okay to bow down before a statue of Mary, pray to Mary, believe that Mary delivers us from death, believe Mary atoned for us, etc., as long as you don't give her "divine worship."  In other words, you can do almost anything worship-wise to Mary as you would to God, just don't call it "divine worship."

Exodus 20:5 and "worship"

The Hebrew word for "worship" in Exodus 20:5 (the Ten Commandments) is "shachah" שָׁחָה.  Take a look at what the Strong's Enhanced Lexicon says about the word.
"172 occurrences; AV translates as “worship” 99 times, “bow” 31 times, “bow down” 18 times, “obeisance” nine times, “reverence” five times, “fall down” three times, “themselves” twice, “stoop” once, “crouch” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to bow down. 1a (Qal) to bow down. 1b (Hiphil) to depress (fig). 1c (Hithpael). 1c1 to bow down, prostrate oneself. 1c1a before superior in homage. 1c1b before God in worship. 1c1c before false gods. 1c1d before angel."11
Bowing down is part of the act of worship, as you can see above.  Clearly, Roman Catholics who bow down before statues of Mary (and others) are risking breaking the commandment not to worship other gods and not to bow down before idols.  The Catholic Church responds by saying that as long as it isn't divine worship given to Mary, it is okay.  But this is nothing more than a word game.  They do the same thing to Mary that they would to God and excuse it by saying that it isn't divine worship.  The funny thing is that God doesn't make the same distinction as the Catholics do.  God says don't do it.  Don't bow down before images (Lev. 26:1).

Idolatry

Second, the Roman Catholic definition of idolatry used above says "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers."  Again after searching all the sources listed above, divine powers is not defined.  The best I found was "divine power preserved Christ's body from corruption." (CCC 627) and "Divine power is inexhaustible" (Catholic Enyclopedia, Omnipotentce).  Roman Catholicism does not attribute divinity to Mary (at least, not yet), but it does attribute divine powers to her: atonement of sin12; divine access to God13, delivering our souls from death14; her intercession brings us salvation15, etc.
Such magnificent attributes of Mary are found nowhere in Scripture.  Let me say this again, none of these things are found in God's inspired word.  They are, however, said to be found in the Roman Catholic Church's Sacred Tradition.  I cannot help but consider what God said through the Apostle Paul about not exceeding what is written in the word of God.
"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other," (1 Cor. 4:6).16
So, the Roman Catholic Church is commanded by Scripture to not exceed what is written in God's word.  Has it done that?  Has it exceeded the limits of Scripture?  Yes, it has.
In the Bible, NASB, the word idol (and its cognates idols and idolatry) occurs 175 times in 162 verses.  I read every one of the 175 verses and not once did I find a reference to the idolators actually considering the idols in their hands and/or to which they bowed as actually being alive, because that is what it would mean to claim that they were divine.  Remember, Catholicism says, "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers."17.  But this is wrong.  You see, the Catholic Church is stacking the definitional deck in its favor so as to separate itself from the biblical teaching of idolatry and maintain its practice of bowing down before various statues and praying to saints.
But saying the Roman Catholic Church is practicing idolatry doesn't prove anything.  So, let's turn to God's word and take a look at the examples of idolatry and then see if the Roman Catholic Church practices the same thing concerning Mary.
I D O L A T R Y
  Idolatry of in the Bible Examples of with Mary
Altars to Idols 2 Chron. 33:15, "He also removed the foreign gods and the idol from the house of the Lord, as well as all the altars which he had built on the mountain of the house of the Lord and in Jerusalem, and he threw them outside the city." "From the beginning of Christianity special veneration was paid to the Mother of God, which in the language of theology is called hyperdulia, to distinguish the honour rendered to her from that given to the other saints. It is not strange, therefore, that after the main or principal altar, the most prominent is that dedicated in a special manner to the Mother of God; and to indicate this specific preference, this altar is usually placed in the most prominent position in the church, i.e. at the right (gospel) side of the main altar. In general it signifies any altar of which the Blessed Virgin is the titular."18
 
Bowing Down to Images Lev. 26:1, "You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God."  See Joshua 23:7 All across the world, images of Mary are elevated in Feasts and Churches.  In those churches, people very often bow down to statues of Mary. This is a violation of scripture.
 
Images in the House of God 2 Chron. 33:6-7, He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger. 7 Then he put the carved image of the idol which he had made in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, “In this house and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel, I will put My name forever; Roman Catholic Churches are full of images of all sorts in, what we could call, the houses of God, the Roman Catholic Churches.  The most prominent are those of Mary.
 
Idols in the hearts Ezek. 14:3, "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and have put right before their faces the stumbling block of their iniquity. Should I be consulted by them at all?" Veneration of Mary is accomplished in the heart. "The Blessed Virgin, as manifesting in a sublimer manner than any other creature the goodness of God, deserves from us a higher recognition and deeper veneration than any other of the saints; and this peculiar cultus due to her because of her unique position in the Divine economy, is designated in theology hyperdulia, that is dulia in an eminent degree."19
 
Kissing statues Hosea 13:2, "And now they sin more and more, And make for themselves molten images, Idols skillfully made from their silver, All of them the work of craftsmen. They say of them, “Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!" All over the world, Catholics not only bow to statues of Mary but will ceremoniously kiss the statue's feet.  There is no record found from the Vatican that denounces such a practice.
 
Making Graven Images Exo. 20:4-5, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, It should go without saying that statues and images of Mary are too countless to number within the Roman Catholic Churches around the world.  If Mary is in heaven, and they make images of her, then they violate the Scripture.
 
Making Male and Female Images Deut. 4:15, "So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female," The Roman Catholic Church is full of male and female statues representing Jesus, Joseph, Mary, and others.  They are often used in worship services and many people bow down before them.
 
Prays to Isaiah 44:17, But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god."  See also  Isaiah 45:20, “Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol, and pray to a god who cannot save. CCC par. 2675, "Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries..."
 
Request for Deliverance Isaiah 44:17, But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god." Par. 966, "...You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."
 
Worshipping Images Deut. 4:19, "And beware, lest you lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven."

Ex. 20:4-5, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."
"...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420).  Statues of Mary often have her depicted with Stars in her crown, an allusion, says Catholicism to Revelation 12:1-2, " And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth." 20
 
Worship of false gods Acts 10:24-26, "And on the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 And when it came about that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man."   Rev. 22:8-9, "And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God." "...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420).
Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry?  According to the scripture and its own practices, yes it does.
"Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry," (1 Cor. 10:14).
  • 1. Catholic Encyclopedia, Tradition and the Living Magisterium
  • 2. Catholic Encyclopedia, Idolatry
  • 3. vatican.va
  • 4. newadvent.org
  • 5. history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html
  • 6. cin.org/vatiidoc.html
  • 7. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
  • 8. Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan Books and Publishers Inc, Rockford Ill. 1974
  • 9. Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, Phd., S.T.D., Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division, Huntington IN, 2002
  • 10. Summa Theologica, 2nd Part of the 2nd Part, Questions 93, newadvent.org/summa/3093.htm
  • 11. Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (H7812). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.
  • 12. Fundamentals of Catholic dogma, Ott, page 213
  • 13. Vatican Website:  Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914
  • 14. CCC 966
  • 15. CCC par. 969
  • 16. The Vatican Website translates this verse as, "I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another.
  • 17. Catholic Encyclopedia, Idolatry
  • 18. Catholyc Encyclopedia, Altar of Our Lady
  • 19. Catholic Encyclopedia, Adoration
  • 20. Labor Pain is part of the curse and Mary is not supposed to be under the curse.  Therefore she would not have felt labor pains and this could not refer to her.

Tuesday, May 15, 2012

Why should we not pray to Mary, the saints or the dead? Or IDOLITARY Training



training your delusional beliefs  to agree with those of Patrick J Miron , Remember you  are not praying 2 the saints, but "Thru" the saints

This must be ok because Patrick J Miron say's it is.. and he went to a Junior College, after High school at Boysville of Michigan

Is praying to the saints Biblical? / Delusional beliefs of Patrick J miron




What are some of  the Delusional Beliefs of Patrick J Miron



2Cor.11
:13 to 15 “For such men are false apostles




[NOTE: There can logically only be One Truth per precise issue.




What are the odds that the truth didn’t happen for 1, 500 YEARS after the Bible had been written?] deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.




 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.


 [Perhaps unknowingly]


Their end will correspond to their deeds.”




The Bible never infers that that any saints, living or dead, sympathize with us more than God does. …


This is  a irrelevant observation.




Paul speaks directly to and about those he understands are doing all that is required to become saints

He praises there example and ask others to emulate them. Catholics do not so much prayer to Saints [as THROUGH them to God], NOT because they are more sympathetic than God;


 No, we Catholics pray THROUGH them

because they   (the dead people) STAND IN THE VERY PRESENCE OF GOD (as Patrick J miron believes)

and then add to our prayers, there own on our behalf.]

Monday, May 14, 2012

The only issue that seriously divides many of these good Catholic people is Medjugorje



Medjugorje


The following articles have been compiled from a variety of independent sources. If you are genuinely interested in discerning the truth about this issue, please take the time to scan as many of the links as possible.  All faithful Catholic are trying to be obedient to the Holy Father, to adore the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar, to embrace true devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and to practice the devotion to the Divine Mercy. The only issue that seriously divides many of these good Catholic people is Medjugorje.
All of the humble testimonies below reflect the most honest and heartfelt convictions. We respectfully present them for your consideration. Truth enters the mind quietly, by the strength of it's own truth. If you have a testimony of your own that you would like to submit  - please send it!
Medjugorje Investigation by Richard Salbato
Official Facts on Medjugorje (complete outline)
Medjugorje, The Actual Situation Today 3-2010
Benedict's 2009 Crackdown on Apparitions
The "Saint" Jozo Zovko and his Sex-Affairs
Purification Has Started
The True Queen of Peace Shrine
Pope to crack down on Alleged Apparitions
Time to Tell the Truth about Medjugorje
Vatican on Father Tomislav Vlasic
Medjugorje and the Vatican 2008
Crackdown on Medjugorje
Medjugorje Evaluated In New Study  James Likoudis
True Devotion or Idol Worship
Pope Benedict on Medjugorje 2-28-2006
The Vatican's Voice on Apparitions in 2006
In Defense of Medjugorje and My Response
Reliable Medjugorje Websites
Bishop on Medjugorje May 2004
The Great Apostasy  by Dave Hughes
Meet the Deceivers - The Fallen Angels 
To Believe in Medjugorje is like ... Being In Love   By Mark Waterinckx
History of Medjugorje   by John Loughman
http://members.lycos.co.uk/jloughnan Great Web Site

http://members.lycos.co.uk/jloughnan/medjsupp.htm

My Years in Medjugorje  Testimony of a Local Medjugorje Resident
The Truth About Medjugorje  By Bishop Zanic; Bishop of Medjugorje 1977 - 1993
Final Decision from ROME  by Bishop Peric; Bishop of Medjugorje 1993 - Present  (Decree Removing Franciscans)
"Throne of Wisdom"  By Bishop Peric, 1995: Criteria for Discerning Medjugorje
Medjugorje: An Experienced Perspective  by Rick Salbato
Medjugorje & Logic by Brian Hughes 1
Medjugorje & Logic by Brian Hughes 2
Medjugorje & Logic by Brian Hughes 3
Medjugorje & Logic by Brian Hughes 4
Medjugorje & Logic by Brian Hughes 5
Medjugorje & Logic by Brian Hughes 6
Questions about Medjugorje by Mr. Craig Heimbichner
Medjugorje - Old Lies - New Admissions  by Mr. Craig Heimbichner
Medjugorje and The Light Bearer  by Mr. Craig Heimbichner
The "Fruits" of Medjugorje
Composing Heaven's Messages: Fr. Vlasic caught authoring "messages" on film
After the War, Miracles and Mutiny by James Drake
Franciscans Plan To Separate From Rome
Medjugorje To Create Separate State
Fake Bishop performs bogus "Confirmation"
Communiqué from Chancellor Don Ante Laburic of Mostar
Falsehood on Film: The Chancery of Mostar speaks out against the film "Gospa"
Laurentin Visits Bishop Peric: Catholic information agency
Medjugorje "Messages" at the Service of the "Affair of Herzegovina"
Official Bulletin of the Province of Herzegovinian
The Medjugorje Miracle: Written by:  Don Luka Pavlovic, General Vicar, Mostar
Private Visits to Inauthentic Apparitions
Medjugorje Bank Raided by Daytona Peace Keeping Army
Caritas of Birmingham, Alabama
Deadly Apparition
Medjugorje and the Light Bearer
Medjugorje and Pedophiles
Better to Believe Than Not to Believe ?
Medjugorje Outline
A Dance on the Volcano by Mark Waterinckx
Medjugorje Franciscans Disobey Church
Porno Web Site For Priests & Medjugorje
Over 1000 Deaths In Uganda: The Africa - Medjugorje Connection
Bishop Zanic's Official Pronouncement on Medjugorje: 1987
'The Truth about Medjugorje' by Bishop Pavao Zanic, 1990
Bishop Peric's Pronouncement Concerning Discerning Medjugorje: 1995
Synopsis of Links on Medjugorje: History, Scandal and Logic
Strange but True: Authentic Mystical Discernment



Madonna has never appeared at Medjugorje and that this whole sham is the work of the demon."



Medjugorje and the Vatican 2008
Richard Salbato July 11, 2008

I am sick of writing about Medjugorje (there are bigger problems in the world today), and there is nothing more I can do about it except wait and hope that the Vatican does something soon.Most recently there was a statement in a Medjugorje miss-information paper that the Vatican had taken the Medjugorje investigation away from the local bishop.I did not even respond to this because I knew it was not true, but who would believe me.
I think, however, that that following two statements by both Bishop Gemma and Bishop Peric are worth posting on my web site, because they prove that these claims are lies. These two newsletters also show that if the Vatican ever does make any statement it would have to conclude Medjugorje is false and probably demonic.
Vatican will reject Medjugorje, says bishop

6 June 2008
An Italian bishop has predicted that the Vatican will soon declare as false the claims that the Virgin Mary has been appearing to a group of visionaries in Medjugorje, Bosnia, for nearly 30 years.

Emeritus Bishop Andrea Gemma of Isernia-Venafro said that he believed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has been studying the claims since 2006, would not rule in favour of the six seers at the end of a review of the alleged apparitions.

"You'll see that soon the Vatican will intervene with something explosive to unmask once and for all who is behind this deceit," the 77-year-old bishop told Petrus, an online Italian Catholic journal.

Bishop Gemma, the most senior exorcist in the Catholic Church until his retirement two years ago, said he personally believed the phenomenon to be a "scandal" and a "diabolical deceit".

He said: "It is a phenomenon which is absolutely diabolical, around which revolve many underground interests. Holy Mother Church, the only one able to pronounce, through the mouth of the Bishop of Mostar, has already said publicly, and officially, that the Madonna has never appeared at Medjugorje and that this whole sham is the work of the demon."

He said: "In Medjugorje everything happens in function of money: pilgrimages, lodging houses, sale of trinkets.

"So much so that abusing the good faith of those poor souls who go there thinking to encounter the Madonna, the false seers have organised themselves financially, have enriched themselves and live a rather comfortable life.

"Just think, one of them organizes directly from America, with a direct economic interest, tens of thousands of pilgrimages every year. These don't seem to me to be disinterested persons.

"Thus, together with those who shore up this noisy deception, they patently have every interest in convincing people that they see and speak with the Virgin Mary."

Since the first alleged apparition on 25 June 1981, the seers say they have seen Mary on about 40,000 occasions during which time she has supposedly imparted tens of thousands of messages and dozens of secrets.

Medjugorje has since become a popular destination for pilgrims, attracting more than five million visitors, including hundreds of thousands each year from the UK and the Irish Republic.

Pilgrims have included Spanish tenor Jos� Carreras, who performed a concert there, and the American actor Jim Cavaziel, who played Jesus in Mel Gibson's blockbuster The Passion of the Christ.

The Medjugorje phenomenon began when a group of children told a priest they had seen the Virgin on a hillside near their town.

An investigation by Bishop Pavao Zanic of Mostar-Duvno found the claims inconsistent with the faith and they were dismissed as false. But the seers responded by claiming that the Virgin had told them that the bishop was a "wolf" who would perish unless he accepted the apparitions as true.

Three Church commissions failed to find evidence to support of their claims and in 1991 the bishops of the former Yugoslavia declared that "it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations".

Their judgments have sharply divided Catholics and the Vatican, which banned pilgrimages to the site in 1985 and began a review of the claims two years ago.

According to the Sunday Times newspaper some of the seers have grown wealthy as a result of their claims - and so has their town. Some seers today own smart executive houses with immaculate gardens, double garages and security gates, and one has a tennis court. They also own expensive cars and have married - one of them, Ivan Dragicevic, to an American former beauty queen.

The new Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Ratko Peric, is as opposed to the claims as his predecessor and in 2004 he upheld the suspension of Fr Jozo Zovko, the "spiritual adviser" to the visionaries.
Bishop Peric on Alleged Commission
Van: Biskupija [mailto:biskupija@gmx.net]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 juli 2008 20:08
Aan: Mark Waterinckx
Ratko, bishop
PRESS RELEASE REGARDING THE ALLEGED COMMISSION ON MEDJUGORJE
Mostar, 27 June 2008
The Croatian daily newspaper �Večernji list� on 27 June 2008 published the following sensational headline on its front page: �The Vatican. The highest circles of the Catholic Church have decided to follow the phenomenon of Medjugorje � A new Commission for Medjugorje�, while on page 5 an even more sensational title appeared: �A Commission of the Holy See is being established�, accompanied by the header: �Medjugorje � Cardinal Puljić on the anniversary of the phenomenon of the apparitions of the Madonna�. Regarding this text the following statement is presented:
The text mentions a falsehood that �seventeen years ago the Commission of the Bishops� Conference of the former Yugoslavia made a decision on Medjugorje declaring that there are no supernatural apparitions and ordered further enquiries��.
The truth is that no Commission of the Bishops� Conference made any decision, nor did the Commission order any further enquiry, but that this decision was made competently by the Bishops� Conference, which on 10 April 1991 declared in Zadar that: �On the basis of investigations made thus far� � hence on the basis of the investigations and conclusions of the Commission established in 1987 by the Bishops� Conference of that time � �it cannot be affirmed that these events involve supernatural apparitions or revelations�.
The text of the article begins with the affirmation: �The President of the Bishops� Conference of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Cardinal Archbishop of Sarajevo Vinko Puljić, announced the formation of a new commission which will investigate the phenomenon and which will be under the jurisdiction of the Holy See�.
This affirmation is then followed by confusing claims and the Cardinal himself in the text that follows refutes the statement in his radio-interview published by �Večernji list�.
The first is that this Commission �will most probably be under the jurisdiction of the Holy See�. Hence it is not clear, but only assumed and anybody�s guess.
Secondly, this Commission �will � if it is established, as is probable � be like an international  commission which will override our jurisdiction�.
Thirdly: �It is certain that the international commission will receive, if it is established, different instructions which remain to be seen�.
 One may ask what kind of assertions and declarations expressing extremely doubtful statements are these: �Most probably� followed then by �probably�; �if� and then �like�; �it is certain� � �if it is established�; �which remain to be seen�?
A contradiction then appears since this so-called and most probable Commission �will override our jurisdiction� and then: �Yet the local bishop will never be excluded, since he is the most competent person for everything that goes on within a diocese�.
After reading this, even a more than average reader of �Večernji list� will not know: has the formation of a Commission only been pre-announced or is it really being established?  Will it finally become a reality and when?  Will it be established at all and when? Will it be under the jurisdiction of the Holy See and in which form? Will it override the competency of the Bishops� Conference of B-H but not the jurisdiction of the local bishop? The only thing that is certain in all of these media announcements, journalistic fabrications and Radio-Medjugorje guesses is that the local bishop of Mostar knows nothing about it at all!
We ask ourselves why do we need such compromising statements and who needs these radio-interviews on the case of Medjugorje for the anniversary of the supposed �apparitions�?
As if we don�t have more important Church issues to deal with in these difficult times and as if there don�t exist more pressing social issues that require our attention in this country, amongst our  people and in this region, than the spreading of unfounded, incoherent news and contradictory statements on the phenomenon which was already in 1991 theologically and authoritatively resolved at the level of the Bishops� Conference which declared: On the basis of comprehensive investigations on the entire phenomenon of Medjugorje � to this day � there has been no valid proof that these events concern supernatural apparitions or revelations!
Note:
Michael Brown�s response to these articles can be found on Kevin J. Symonds� web site

the claims of the receipt of private revelations from the Virgin Mary by Gianna Talone Sullivan.

Emmitsburg's Own End of the World Cult?
Flagrante Delicto
Since the inception of Emmitsburg.net, we’ve steered clear of passing any judgment, or for that matter any mention of the claims of the receipt of private revelations from the Virgin Mary by Gianna Talone Sullivan.
The only article on the subject on emmitsburg.net is the position paper of the of the Archdiocesan theological commission that investigated the messages alleged to have been delivered to Gianna Talone-Sullivan by the Virgin Mary which concluded "that there is nothing supernatural going on and that, in fact, there are "negative elements" contained in some of the apocalyptic prophecies she has made public." (Click here to read the full position paper)
Don't ask me why, but on June 10th, I logged into a web site publicizing her 'messages' and what I read left me troubled.  Below is her latest message:
"Public Message of Our Lady of Emmitsburg To the world, through Gianna Talone Sullivan,
June 1, 2008
My dear little children, praised be Jesus!
Little ones, thank you for coming to pray. Know how much God loves you. He has given you tremendous gifts.
Children, for the last 20 years I have oftentimes spoken of "change." I have told you that there is no time for fear; there is only time for change. You must know by now that I have recently spoken of an arising of "two suns." When you see the two suns on the horizon, you must know that this is a time of change, a time of this new beginning about which I have spoken to you before. After you see the two suns, there is only a short time before you will see a tremendous change in weather. After this, as you know, there are more changes to come.
Children, God did not create only the Earth. God is the Creator of the cosmos, with its many galaxies, many orbits, different stars and different planets. God is the Creator! There are other planets like earth, far beyond your understanding.
I can tell you this: Even your governments and the Church authorities already have knowledge of the stars aligning and its implications upon you. You must not fear but must be prepared, primarily spiritually.
After awhile, you will see a time when there is another body in orbit around your solar system, coming between Earth and the Sun and leading to tremendous devastation. Approximately 60-70% of the world’s population, as you know it, will cease. Of those who survive, 60% of them could die of disease and starvation.
Prayer is the answer! Prayer can mitigate much of anything to come. Love and unity must be at the forefront, not survival of the fittest. But I can assure you that secretly those in governmental positions around the world and Church authorities all know. As your Mother and with you as children of God, it is my duty to forewarn you and to draw you to my Son for protection.
Look not too far before you will see two suns. Make my words known to all people: Life is important because God loves you. Those who are in control of the financial world think differently. But I your Mother know what true Life is!
So prepare, spiritually prepare. You will always be with my Son if you trust. God has a special plan, a new beginning! Look to Him; and do not fear, but love with all your heart.
I look to you, and I answer your prayers. Even if you are a sinner, and even if you were wrong, I come for your intercession. Now you must remove your "self" from your desires and look to help all people.
Peace to you (fading whisper)."
While each reader is free to draw their own conclusion on the nature of the message, I found myself reflecting upon some 'end of the world' cults that have made the news in the past few years.  But before we talk about them however lets do a quick reality check ...
The way I read the 'message' it is predicting the Earth is about to get smacked by an asteroid or a comet.  I think we can pretty much rule out an actually star entering into our solar systems for a few Billion years.  Just to be safe, I checked and there is no report of any 'lost' star due to impact us anytime soon.  Over the past 50 years Astronomers have done a pretty good job of plotting the movement of all the local stars.  And while our Galaxy is due to have a collision with another galaxy, that collision is due to happen 6 to 7 billion years from now ...
Now given that Mary is only predicting that approximately 60-70% of the population will cease, that means the 'object' will be less in size then the meteor that resulted in the extinction of the Dinosaurs 65 million years ago which wiped out just about everything bigger then a rat.  If it was an actual star, we would be toast period. So small is good!  [By the way, why can Mary only give Gianna an approximate number?  Can't she use her connections with God to give Gianna an exact number? What gives here?]
Now long before anyone can see a comet or asteroid with their own eyes, you can bet that NASA's Near-Earth Asteroid Tracking Program will have given the body a neat sounding name ... like Comet 'Flossie,' and knowing how government employees can't keep a secret, the news would be all over the Internet. 
Earth and all the other planets and moons of our Solar System have been continuously pelted by asteroids and comets ever since their formation -- just look at the Moon's craters through a small telescope or a good pair of binoculars.

NASA supports several ground-based programs and related technology development efforts that use sensitive electronic detectors to scan the skies for undiscovered NEOs.

Major examples of these programs include the above mentioned Near Earth Asteroid Tracking (NEAT) system operated by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in conjunction with the U.S. Air Force on Mt. Haleakala, Maui, HI; the Spacewatch program run by the University of Arizona in Tucson at Kitt Peak, AZ; and the Lowell Observatory NEO Survey (LONEOS) program in Flagstaff, AZ.

NASA also funds a variety of ground-based research designed to characterize the composition, size, shape and other basic properties of asteroids and comets. These scientists use many of the world's most advanced telescopes and most powerful radars at sites ranging from the Keck facility atop Mauna Kea in Hawaii to the massive Arecibo radar in Puerto Rico, which was upgraded recently by NASA and the National Science Foundation in part for this task.

NASA's overall work in this area soon will be coordinated by a new NASA office, bringing a central focus to this diverse activity. NASA-supported researchers also have been asked to follow a new protocol for reporting potentially hazardous NEOs to the public, based on the principles of verification and consensus. Detailed orbital data should be shared with fellow researchers within 24 hours of receipt, with a subsequent effort to reach consensus on the object's long-term orbital path within 48 hours. NASA officials are beginning discussions with related researchers around the world to develop more comprehensive guidelines that can be applied on an international basis in the future.

The most dangerous asteroids, those capable of causing major regional or global disasters, are extremely rare. These bodies impact the Earth only once every 100,000 years on average. Comets in this category are thought to impact even less frequently, perhaps once every 500,000 years or so.

The risk from NEO impacts increases with the size of the projectile. The greatest risk is associated with objects larger than a half-mile to a mile (1-2 kilometers), which are large enough to perturb the Earth's climate on a global scale by injecting large quantities of dust into the stratosphere. Such an event could depress temperatures and the amount of surface sunlight around the globe, leading to loss of food crops and related problems. An ocean impact could trigger large ocean waves, or tsunamis.  (The scene of the tidale wave resulting from the meteor impact in the move Deep Impact gives you a good idea of what one might expect.)

For further information on this topic, visit the NASA Ames Research Center's Asteroid & Comet Impact home page or PBS's Savage Planet Website

It is entirely feasible that we could divert a large asteroid or comet that may collide with Earth from its orbit using existing technologies. The potential response depends on the lead time. If we can predict the event long in advance, by at least 10 to 100 years, then conventional rockets and explosives would probably be adequate, even for bodies as large as a half-mile. However, if we discover the object only a few years before impact, these technologies might not be adequate. Such a response would be coordinated in the United States by the departments of Defense and Energy, and likely would include international partners.

To learn more about 'Near Earth Objects' we suggest you type the phrase into any search engine ... contrary to latest 'message' from Mary, the amount of information available is quite extensive.  So before you run off and do something stupid based upon the 'message,' check with those who really know what they are talking about when it comes to Near Earth Objects ... or better yet go rent the Movie Armageddon and watch how Bruce Willis saves the earth!
If you're interested in what's really happening in the skies at night, we suggest you read Astronomer Wayne Wooten's monthly Astronomy column on Emmitsburg.net.
Now to the darker side of the supposed 'message.'  As I noted above, I found myself reflecting upon some 'end of the world' cults that have made the news in the past few years, and wondered if Emmitsburg was about to join the list. Cults such as:

Virgin Mary prayer services can continue

Virgin Mary prayer services can continue



We do not believe in the apparitions
 Christopher Gaul
Catholic Review
An archdiocesan theological commission investigating messages alleged to have been delivered to Gianna Talone-Sullivan by the Blessed Virgin Mary has concluded that there is nothing supernatural going on and that, in fact, there are "negative elements" contained in some of the apocalyptic prophecies she has made public.
In a letter sent to the visionary Sept. 24 at her home near Emmitsburg, the archdiocese’s judicial vicar and cardinal’s delegate for canonical affairs, Monsignor Jeremiah F. Kenney, informed Dr. Talone-Sullivan that Cardinal William H. Keeler accepts the findings of the three-priest commission and has instructed that "no Catholic church properties may be used for the purpose of providing a platform for any activities associated with the alleged apparitions."
"We do not believe in the apparitions," Monsignor Kenney told The Catholic Review.
On Sept. 27 Cardinal Keeler sent a letter to the pastor of St. Joseph, Emmitsburg, informing him of the commission’s decision. It was at St. Joseph that Dr. Talone-Sullivan claimed to receive messages from the Virgin Mary during Thursday evening prayer services beginning in 1993 until September 2000 when the archdiocese banned them.
In the letter to Father William O’Brien, C.M., Cardinal Keeler quoted the commission as stating that, "given the present circumstances throughout the world of what may be called a growing addiction to the spectacular, we think that the Church should not promote or encourage persons claiming to have extraordinary channels to God."
In response, Dr. Talone-Sullivan, who has a doctorate degree in pharmacology, said she is "grateful for the time, devotion and commitment, which the commission undertook in reviewing and studying the alleged experiences and events."
"It is," she further stated, "a great gift to belong to the Catholic Church, and we are always safe when we bow in obedience under her wing." However, she maintained that her regular apparitions and messages were and continue to be real.
In an open letter to those who have followed her messages, Dr. Talone-Sullivan said, "We ask forgiveness from you if any misunderstanding or confusion has been caused to you or your family as a result of the lessons and messages that have been given to me by Our Lord and Our Lady."
The archdiocese and the commission were also critical of a video called, "Unbridled Mercy," produced by Dr. Talone-Sullivan’s Mercy Foundation, in which references are made to a "eucharistic spiritual reign where the Child Jesus will usher in a kingdom of peace."
The commission noted that "such a spirituality is not the traditional Church teaching about the eucharistic mystery.
"It may well be a comforting devotion for the visionary," the commission stated, "but it cannot claim to be a private revelation of divine inspiration, to be presented as a divine message for the public."
Married to a physician, Dr. Michael Sullivan, Dr. Talone-Sullivan is the founder of the Mission of Mercy, based in Fairfield, Pa., near Emmitsburg. It is a non-profit mobile medical program that works to provide free medical and dental care to the poor, homeless, uninsured and underinsured patients in central and Western Maryland.
After first receiving "private revelations" in Scottsdale in 1987, Dr. Talone-Sullivan said she began to receive messages in 1988 that she said the Virgin Mary wanted to be made public. She said that from Dec. 19, 1989, to the present time, Our Lady has appeared and spoken to her nearly every night (except Fridays) during her private prayer, and during nearly every weekly public prayer group in both Scottsdale, Ariz., and since November 1993 at St. Joseph, Emmitsburg,
In 1989 Bishop Thomas O’Brien of Phoenix formed an investigative commission to look into Dr. Talone-Sullivan’s reported apparitions and messages and later announced that the diocese neither supported nor condemned the events. The bishop wrote that people were "free to believe in private revelations if you wish."
The Archdiocese of Baltimore remained silent on the events in Emmitsburg until Aug. 30, 1995, when Monsignor Kenney said that because a diocesan investigation in Arizona had uncovered "nothing contrary to faith" Baltimore was "neutral on the matter at this time."
Events at St. Joseph’s parish accommodated the growing crowds which averaged some 600 people every Thursday evening, growing to about 1,000 during the summer months.
After the archdiocese ordered the cessation of the Thursday prayer service, which Dr. Talone Sullivan accepted "in obedience," she stopped publishing the messages she claimed to receive from the Virgin Mary until this past August when she again began to post them on an internet Web site.
In his letter to Father O’Brien, Cardinal Keeler noted that the commission acknowledged that "impressive results" came from the Thursday evening prayer services, including conversions, significant increases in the number of confessions as well as physical and spiritual healings.
However, the commission stated that while it "gladly recognizes the working of God’s grace, even in somewhat strange circumstances," it saw "no necessary connection" between Dr. Talone-Sullivan’s alleged apparitions and the reported benefits.
"No one can go off and start up his own church and call it Roman Catholic."
Have your own stories or thoughts about the Our Lady of Emmitsburg Cult?
If so, send them to us as cultwatch@emmitsburg.net

Virgin Mary Visions Disavowed by Church

Jan Markell & Jim Tetlow - Apparitions of Mary Delusions (1 of 4)

Messages from Heaven: Lying Signs & Wonders Exposed